From Modeling to Mixology: Nigel Barker's Journey
The episode features a captivating conversation with the distinguished Nigel Barker, who shares insights into the genesis of his renowned espresso martini. Our dialogue traverses an array of topics, including the intricacies of cocktail culture and the unique challenges associated with crafting this beloved beverage. We delve into the historical context of the espresso martini, exploring its rise and subsequent decline in popularity, and the current resurgence it is experiencing in contemporary cocktail menus. Additionally, Mr. Barker articulates his vision behind the creation of his product, emphasizing the significance of quality ingredients and the artistry involved in cocktail preparation. The episode culminates in a spirited discussion on the broader implications of creativity and passion within the realms of both mixology and photography.
In this the first episode of An Audience at 8 podcast
Host Gary Spencer who has a Hospitality and Fashion Model background talks to Nigel about his life and how he now has a successful Espresso Martini company
Nigel also talks about his charity work , his documentary film making , and how he became a judge on Americas Next Top Model for 17 seasons
This podcast was recorded in NYC and also filmed for You Tube
1 An Audience At Eight website Full Episode
Takeaways:
- The podcast features a comprehensive discussion about the origins and evolution of the espresso martini, highlighting its cultural significance.
- Nigel Barker shares his journey from modeling to photography, emphasizing the importance of creativity in both fields.
- The conversation addresses the challenges and nuances of creating high-quality cocktails, particularly the espresso martini.
- Listeners gain insights into the cocktail industry, including market gaps and the importance of authenticity in product development.
- An exploration of the impact of reality television on the modeling industry is presented, particularly through the lens of America's Next Top Model.
- The episode underscores the importance of resilience and creativity in overcoming challenges, both personally and professionally.
Companies mentioned in this episode:
- Harry's
- Vive Clicquot
- Voss Water
- Macallan Whiskey
- America's Next Top Model
- Vivian Westwood
- Mary Quant
Transcript
This is an audience at 8.
Speaker A:I'm very happy and honored tonight that Nigel's going to join us, Mr. Nigel Barker.
Speaker A:And he's going to talk to us about everything, but mainly he's going to talk to us about his wonderful espresso martini.
Speaker A:So, yeah, let's do it.
Speaker A:Let's do it.
Speaker A:Nige, It's a pleasure.
Speaker B:Well, I've known this chap for years and years and years.
Speaker B:Although I've got to say, he's pretty much looked identical for about 30 years.
Speaker B:You think literally 30 years ago I met him, I think in probably you were wearing a jacket with no shirt and somehow this look has remained in fashion.
Speaker B:I'm not quite sure whether we can't afford a shirt or, you know, or just the fact that he's got such great pecs, you know, and he's just wants to show him off, but, you know, clearly, you know, I'm very impressed.
Speaker B:Still am.
Speaker A:Wow, Nigel, thank you.
Speaker A:That's quite the introduction.
Speaker B:Is this your show?
Speaker B:Sorry, no, no.
Speaker B:You're going to be.
Speaker A:I think you've got some sort of idea what you're doing in this media.
Speaker A:No.
Speaker A:Thanks, mate, for being here.
Speaker A:I really.
Speaker A:I really do appreciate you coming in and I know you've got a great product.
Speaker A:We're going to get into that product later.
Speaker A:But, yeah, I actually probably don't look like I was 30 years ago.
Speaker A:You do, because underneath this hat is.
Speaker A:I'm follically challenged, let's put it that way.
Speaker B:But, yeah, I used to have hair when it was in fashion as well.
Speaker B:But, yeah, I love it.
Speaker B:It says the one guy with no hair.
Speaker B:I love it.
Speaker B:Yeah, you and me, mate.
Speaker B:Yeah, that's right.
Speaker B:That's right.
Speaker A:All right, let's get this party started.
Speaker B:It's Nigel.
Speaker B:You heard that?
Speaker B:See, wait a second.
Speaker B:We go.
Speaker B:Gary, you have to listen to the crowd.
Speaker B:You've got to let them speak.
Speaker B:I mean, when they're saying how delicious it is from.
Speaker B:And you can just hear the murmur.
Speaker A:Of the espresso again, clearly.
Speaker B:Yeah, okay, clearly.
Speaker A:Right, hold on.
Speaker B:Listen, guys.
Speaker A:Let me.
Speaker A:Let me have a sip of this.
Speaker A:Let's start off with this.
Speaker B:So let's not forget this is a podcast.
Speaker B:So for all of you out there who are not watching and are listening, Gary is actually drinking my espresso martini right now.
Speaker B:Gary, describe it as it.
Speaker B:As it comes to your mouth.
Speaker A:It's actually very, very good.
Speaker A:Very good.
Speaker B:It actually is in inverted commas.
Speaker A:No, no.
Speaker A:But I'm not saying that because you're here.
Speaker A:It is Very, very good.
Speaker A:I said that at the bar.
Speaker A:It took Mario a fraction of a time to shake it.
Speaker A:And it's a great product.
Speaker A:And as I said to you, it's great that you're so proud of it.
Speaker B:And we have to stop calling it a product.
Speaker B:It's like a baby.
Speaker A:It's a baby.
Speaker B:You can't call your baby a product.
Speaker B:It has a heart and soul and it means something to me.
Speaker B:So as you know it, when I talk about it, what would I know?
Speaker B:Because you said yourself you're so proud when you talk about it.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:You know, and I think any of us in here who've got something that you've made or created, and this goes past this, right?
Speaker B:Like, my whole career as a creative has been about being crazy passionate about whatever I do.
Speaker B:There's no 99% in.
Speaker B:I'm either 110% in or I'm not in at all.
Speaker B:And that's no different than this.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:But anyway, we're going to do intros.
Speaker B:Am I. Shall I intro you first or are you going to interrupt me?
Speaker A:Well, I was going to try and intro you, but you started talking about the espresso martini.
Speaker B:You know, we've been like an all married couple now for like 25 years, I think.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:I'm going to introduce you, ladies and gentlemen, if you're not aware of this gentleman to my right, Mr. Nigel Barker.
Speaker A:I met him, we were modeling a long, long time ago, late 90s.
Speaker A:He then went on to be a very, very successful photographer and then a very successful TV personality.
Speaker A:And now he's got this fantastic brand, not a product brand, which is his baby, which you said.
Speaker A:And I'm very, as I said earlier, very honored to have him here.
Speaker A:So let's give him a round of applause, actually.
Speaker B:Oh, thank you.
Speaker B:Thank you.
Speaker A:Yeah, man, it's it, it.
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker A:It's a big deal, Nigel.
Speaker A:And we're in this beautiful bar which is my baby, which I put quite a lot of time into over the last year, really, because it's been a.
Speaker A:It's been an idea for a while.
Speaker A:We just finished it.
Speaker A:We're just about to open and thought it'd be a great idea to do this podcast series called an audience at 8.
Speaker A:So with that said, Nigel, I'm going to ask you a few questions.
Speaker B:Fire away.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:Born in London, right?
Speaker B: Born in London, Chelsea,: Speaker A:Chelsea boy.
Speaker B:Yes, that's right.
Speaker A:I didn't know that.
Speaker A:But you really.
Speaker A:How long did you stay in Chelsea?
Speaker B:I was, I Was actually born in.
Speaker B:On Harley street, which is not Chelsea, and then lived in Marble Arch, which is, if any of you know, is off the Park West London.
Speaker B:And then I moved to Chelsea when I was about 14 and I was there until I was about 19 and then I pretty much left the UK.
Speaker B:Wow.
Speaker A:Wow.
Speaker A:You know, I.
Speaker A:When I was with Annette, actually I had a place in the Kings Road there in Chelsea.
Speaker A:I didn't know you, you.
Speaker A:You spent time in Chelsea.
Speaker B:Oh yeah, right off the Kings Road.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Fantastic.
Speaker A:What a place there in that time.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:It's changed drastically.
Speaker A:But yeah, man, it's a special place.
Speaker A:The Kings Road, for those of you who don't know, in Chelsea was.
Speaker A:Was so integral for fashion and music, particularly the 60s and the 70s.
Speaker A:So many great designers came from that area.
Speaker A:Vivian Westwood.
Speaker A:Yeah, Vivian Westwood.
Speaker A:Mary Quant.
Speaker A:The Pistols were formed in.
Speaker A:I think it was sex to shut the store.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker B:That's right.
Speaker B:Which.
Speaker A:Which then became Victoria Vivian Westwood.
Speaker B:Right, that's correct.
Speaker A:And so the Sex Crystals were born there.
Speaker A:And it's just a very, very special place.
Speaker A:It's very different now.
Speaker B:It's gentrified.
Speaker A:Yeah, it's.
Speaker A:It's a crazy place.
Speaker A:But that's the.
Speaker B:That's like your meatpacking district, basically.
Speaker B:You know, when I first came to the US I got a place, the meat packing and was a similar thing.
Speaker B:It was hardcore tough area.
Speaker B:Real meat packing, you know, was the sort of almost slightly dangerous part of town.
Speaker B:And now, you know, all the photographers, all the artists have left and it's the Apple Store, you know, and Dior.
Speaker B:Actually, you know, it used to be Dizzy Bagels, you know.
Speaker B:And so, yeah, it's very sort of similar kind of thing how it happens.
Speaker B:I mean, it's, you know, the artists and all the sort of the rough and ready show up and do cool things and that area becomes really desirable.
Speaker B:But then gentrification comes and, and it's just.
Speaker B:It's inevitable.
Speaker B:So the artists move on.
Speaker B:You know, they were.
Speaker B:All went to Brooklyn pretty much, but now I feel like they've all gone to Woodstock.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker A:Yeah, right.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Oh, no.
Speaker A:Excuse me a minute.
Speaker A:I'm just going to take a sip of the Nigel Barker martini.
Speaker B:It's incredibly delicious.
Speaker B:All of you out there, you know, it's hard to put down.
Speaker B:So if you haven't had one yet, you're going to.
Speaker B:You're going to be suffering from the same thing that Gary's going to be suffering from, which is this sort of parched mouth.
Speaker B:Every sort of 10 seconds having not had a sip.
Speaker A:You know, for those of you who hadn't had a sip yet, how did you get to New York?
Speaker A:How did that happen?
Speaker B:So again, for those who.
Speaker B:Who I'll kind of give you a very brief and sort of bring everyone up to speed.
Speaker B:You know, my background is in fashion, entertainment, but I had no idea that was what was going to happen.
Speaker B:I started off at high school, schooled in the uk, studying science, biology, chemistry, physics, maths.
Speaker B:I always thought my parents thought I was going to go off and become a doctor.
Speaker B:You know, that really didn't seem like it was very likely because I wasn't really interested in healing people that I had the grades to become a doctor and if you have an Asian parent like I did, then, you know, you're going to become a doctor.
Speaker B:And my parents already had an accountant and a lawyer and I was going to take the doctor box.
Speaker B:But, you know, I had other ideas and I started doing fashion design, pattern cutting, weaving, all the sort of backbone of what it meant to sort of become a fashion designer on the side when I was 18 years old.
Speaker B:And I actually wove my first piece of big piece of material that I made my first suit out of when I was 17 years old and actually made a hat that I sold on Sloan Square at the General Trading Company when I was 18.
Speaker B:So I had this taste of the fashion industry out of nowhere, on a sideline that my parents didn't even know that I was doing because I was doing it in my own time.
Speaker B:So I had this idea that I wanted to do something else.
Speaker B:And even, in fact, when my father found out that I was learning how to sew, I had to tell him that it was because when I become a plastic surgeon, I would be really good at stitching people up for him to actually say it was okay that I was doing this.
Speaker B:So, you know, I.
Speaker B:But in the back of my mind, not that I thought I would ever become a model or get into fashion because when I was a kid, and I think with Gary is the same thing was never really an option to be a photographer or to be a model.
Speaker B:That wasn't like a.
Speaker B:No one says that to you.
Speaker B:No one says, oh, you should do this.
Speaker B:That was not our generation.
Speaker B:There was no degree course at college to go and study photography.
Speaker B:Now there's numerous.
Speaker B:You know, this didn't happen.
Speaker B:You had to intern under a photographer.
Speaker B:So it was a very different world.
Speaker B:But there happened to be a TV show called the Clothes show, which you may remember, which was a huge big English TV show that was a behemoth.
Speaker B:It went on for years and years.
Speaker B:In fact, it's one of the longest running English television shows ever.
Speaker B:And it was all about fashion.
Speaker B:But what they did was for one sort of episode, if you like, a year, they would run a modeling show.
Speaker B:And my mum had the brainwave of entering me into this competition of which I was horrified, actually, and was like, what are you talking about?
Speaker B:I'm not, I can't do that.
Speaker B:I didn't win.
Speaker B:I got on the show, which was amazing enough.
Speaker B:I think 10,000 people tried out.
Speaker B:I was one of 20 that made it on the show.
Speaker B:And then I actually got into top three.
Speaker B:But that meant I got a actual qualification as a, or an opportunity rather to become a model for an agency called Gavin Models in London.
Speaker A:Oh, really?
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:You know, that was my first then Models one after that, right.
Speaker B:And that led me to that opportunity to sort of travel and see the world.
Speaker B:So, but I, and what happened was, is I got into medical school and I told everyone, well, let me just take a year off to start, you know, make a bit of money before I become a doctor, you know, as a model and see the world.
Speaker B:This young kid is, by the way, I'm part Sri Lankan.
Speaker B:My background is mixed.
Speaker B:And so growing up in England was always a bit confusing as a kid in the 70s.
Speaker B:And so I never really felt at home and I always wanted to see the world.
Speaker B:And I think that fashion and modeling world gave me that opportunity and that first taste of there's another world out there outside of the uk.
Speaker A:You know, I could interrupt you there, Nigel, briefly.
Speaker A:I, I, if I have a takeaway from modeling, it'd be the travel.
Speaker A:Of course it's great, you know, the money's great, all that stuff.
Speaker A:But the, the, the, the advance, the, the, the way you get to travel as a bowl and the places you get to see, you get to see places that nobody else gets to see.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And it's, that's what my takeaway from it was, is that I, because before I modeled, I didn't really ever see anywhere.
Speaker A:I hadn't really been many places.
Speaker A:And once that opportunity opened up, that's what I miss about that life.
Speaker A:Because it seems you live four different lives, right?
Speaker A:When you look back and you see four different lives and you think, how did they ever join up?
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:You must look back on that time when we first met, you think, how did I get here?
Speaker B:I think one of the interesting things too about the fashion industry and the modeling industry, that's Actually changed quite a bit is that there's a few places in the world where sort of all types of people merge.
Speaker B:One's the barbershop, the other's church.
Speaker B:And it seemed that in many ways the modeling industry was one of those ones too, in large part because it wasn't about the way you sounded or necessarily about your education, it was about the way you looked.
Speaker B:So it's very unique.
Speaker B:So therefore you could have someone who was potentially a lord or a lady in the uk, that.
Speaker B:Other words, of sort of nobility, sort of working alongside someone who came from sort of working class, sort of, if you like, the poorest side of the uk, which is me.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Which it could be, but you could be side by side working for Ralph Lauren.
Speaker B:And it had nothing to do with anything.
Speaker B:Correct.
Speaker B:Other than your look.
Speaker B:So it was a very unique kind of industry.
Speaker B:That's changed the.
Speaker B:You know, the whole.
Speaker B:If you look at what happened over the.
Speaker B:In the fashion industry, now you've got all the Hadids and, you know, those are the sort of superstars.
Speaker B:And that's very much a very different sort of side to it.
Speaker B:That really was not the thing, because models weren't personalities when we started, they were faces.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:You know, you were a look, you were a face, you were known as.
Speaker B:You didn't.
Speaker B:You didn't hear anyone speak until Cindy Crawford was on House of Style.
Speaker B:You know, that was the very first time when sort of MTV came along.
Speaker B:But we predate that, which is the interesting thing.
Speaker B:I mean, when we started modeling, there weren't even pages, let alone cell phones, let alone email.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So it was a completely different world.
Speaker B:When he traveled to the US for the first time, you were probably calling back on a Sunday and writing letters.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:I mean, yeah.
Speaker B:He doesn't want to admit it, but that's true.
Speaker A:No, but I mean, I started later, but, I mean, he's trying to make.
Speaker B:Me sound like I'm even older than he is, for God's sakes.
Speaker A:No, but I don't think we ever had this conversation.
Speaker A:I. I didn't start to.
Speaker A:I was like 32.
Speaker A:So for me, it was.
Speaker A:I started in 95.
Speaker A:But you are correct in that when I started cell phones, that only really started being used.
Speaker A:And when Annette said to me, and that was an agent in London, by the way, that Nigel knows, I mean, we're just talking about that.
Speaker A:She said, oh, you need a cell phone?
Speaker A:I said, why do I need one of them?
Speaker A:She.
Speaker A:Well, how am I going to contact you?
Speaker A:So that is so it was still very early.
Speaker B:Anyway, Annette.
Speaker B:Annette is not just any.
Speaker B:Anybody.
Speaker B:Annette is a sort of legendary fashion modeling agent that ran an agency called so Damn Tough.
Speaker B:That was the name of it, which, by the way, is his model agent.
Speaker B:So he had.
Speaker B:His model agency was called so Damn Tough, which just in itself is hilarious.
Speaker B:I remember when I first heard it, I'm like, who would make that up?
Speaker B:Like, such a ridiculous name?
Speaker A:Do you know the story?
Speaker B:And then you met these guys and they were.
Speaker B:They were all like, gary shredded.
Speaker B:Wearing jackets with no shirts.
Speaker B:And I'm like, God, these guys really are so damn tough.
Speaker B:I would never dream of doing that.
Speaker B:I was there with like a cravat on, you know, like, hello, darling.
Speaker A:No, Nigel, you're so.
Speaker A:Yeah, no, where do I go from there?
Speaker A:Actually, yeah, it's got a crazy title, but I don't want to bring it down.
Speaker A:I don't want to bring this down.
Speaker A:But, you know, our Annette got that name is that she was before Tough.
Speaker A:She was the owner of the.
Speaker A:I. I can't think of the agency now, but it was the agency that was on the Marchioness.
Speaker A:And the Marchioness went down, remember?
Speaker A:And a lot of those models.
Speaker A:And when she said, oh, I could never go back to that, but.
Speaker A:So the mar.
Speaker B:There.
Speaker A:There was a model party.
Speaker A:Let me just tell you a very quick story.
Speaker A:It's quite a sad story, but we'll move on quickly after this and net.
Speaker A:Russell had an agency called Synchro.
Speaker A:There you go.
Speaker A:It was called Synchro and there was this model party and it was on a boat which was going down the River Thames, and this boat got rammed by another boat.
Speaker A:And I think she lost 74 models overnight.
Speaker A:And she was on the boat and she survived.
Speaker A:And she was rounded a table months later and she said, I don't know if I can carry on in this business anymore.
Speaker A:And she was convinced to carry on and open another agency because Annette had one of those eyes, you know, she had a great eye for somebody that she felt could work in the business.
Speaker B:And, you know, I think just to add to that, she didn't just have an eye for someone who she thought could work in the business.
Speaker B:What she did was see someone like Gary, someone like Tony Ward, people who were not conventional.
Speaker B:That was just it.
Speaker B:So whereas, say, maybe even me at the time might have been a more conventional look for what you might imagine, what she was brilliant about was looking and saying, this person has a unique look vibe.
Speaker B:And she could see that Madonna might be interested.
Speaker B:She could see where Dolce and Gabbana might be interested.
Speaker B:She could see what the emerging designers, that zeitgeist of what was happening.
Speaker B:It's quite easy to go down the road of like, this is what's traditionally accepted.
Speaker B:It's a completely different thing to be a maverick and say, I see the future and it's not this, it's something else.
Speaker B:And find someone like Agari who might be slightly older, maybe 34 like you said, not an 18 year old kid like I was.
Speaker B:And see someone who's sort of tough too.
Speaker B:So damn tough, actually.
Speaker B:And go, these are the kinds of guys we want.
Speaker B:We want guys, guys.
Speaker B:Or want the sort of someone who looks almost like it might do you over if you're not.
Speaker B:If you're not lucky, you know.
Speaker B:So it's sort of like.
Speaker B:And I think she was very smart that way to be able to really see the future because she was right.
Speaker B:Tony Ward, as you may remember, actually dated and appeared in multiple Madonna videos and everything else.
Speaker A:Yeah, no, Tony.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I mean, Tony, if you've ever seen any.
Speaker A:Anything that Madonna did back then, Justify My Love was his great one with the black and white, but an iconic model.
Speaker A:And I was just about to say that Nigel.
Speaker A:Yeah, Annette could pick people.
Speaker A:I remember one occasion I was up for the Sunday Times and I had this book of 18 photographs which I was really proud of.
Speaker A:And she took 15 of them out and she left three and she was sending them to ENR Webb, who was the editor of it over Times magazine.
Speaker A:I said, what are you doing?
Speaker A:And I was really panicking.
Speaker A:She said, darling, I know what I'm doing.
Speaker A:And I booked a gig.
Speaker A:And that's what, that's what was great about Annette.
Speaker A:She just, she just knew.
Speaker A:And I have a lot, I personally have a lot.
Speaker B:What she knew was, was that certain editors, and this is still true to this day, like to think that they've discovered you.
Speaker B:So if she sends you in with a load of pictures, you've clearly been seen by other people.
Speaker B:And what she did was she made you look like you were a new face, you know, and he looked at your book and was like, oh, my goodness, you've only got three pictures.
Speaker B:Just think what I could do with you.
Speaker B:And therefore she was smart enough to play the game right back at him.
Speaker A:You know what?
Speaker A:I love that Nigel said that because that is such an insight.
Speaker A:And I've never seen that side before.
Speaker A:I've never thought about that before.
Speaker A:But that was so true on that gig, a hundred percent, because he gave me six pages and after those six pages, I had a career.
Speaker A:But that, but that, but that goes back to my love for Annette.
Speaker A:Because if I hadn't have met Annette and if I haven't modeled, my life would have been very different.
Speaker A:Which leads me into same for Nigel.
Speaker A:I'm sure if he hadn't models, his life would have been very different.
Speaker A:He wouldn't have found those avenues.
Speaker B:I'd be taking your pulse right now.
Speaker A:No, right, Nigel.
Speaker A:That's what I'm saying.
Speaker A:He said when I set you up there at the bar, yeah, man, great admiration for you because you saw niches in markets and, you know, you, you found the avenue in photography and then you went into America's Next Top Model and now you with the espresso brand.
Speaker B:And you see the way he just slipped in America's Next Not Model like that.
Speaker B:We just slipped that in that little battle.
Speaker A:Well, I did want to open.
Speaker A:I didn't want to overplay because he was only on it for like 14 seasons or something.
Speaker B:Something 17.
Speaker A:Oh, 17.
Speaker A:Just a 17.
Speaker A:Well, I didn't want to, you know, I want to go crazy.
Speaker A:But tell me how, how did that happen?
Speaker A:How did that come about?
Speaker B:Top Model?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Well, long story short, many of you may remember.
Speaker B:Did any of you remember or, you know, I'm talking as if I'm speaking to guys.
Speaker B:If you're listening, we have a kind of a live audience thing happening here.
Speaker B:It's just unusual for a podcast.
Speaker B:You know, I've had a podcast for years, by the way, Gary, so you.
Speaker A:Better have me on there.
Speaker B:Yeah, well, you know, sorry about that.
Speaker B:It's still time to go.
Speaker B:I'm only on my 16th season, so 17th.
Speaker B:Maybe I'll bring you on or return the compliment.
Speaker B:But the reality is that as I'm looking into the room, Top Model is a show that was a sort of pop culture phenomenon.
Speaker B:It was bigger than the show itself, what it meant to people.
Speaker B:And there's still to this day, people come up to me on a regular basis, not just here but all over the world who watched the show.
Speaker B:It was in 150 countries.
Speaker B:It had an audience of 100 million people.
Speaker B:It was a bigger show than Sesame street or Baywatch internationally, which is crazy.
Speaker B:And, you know, so it was just a phenomenon.
Speaker B:But when I first watched that first season, season one, I was just like everybody else at home and you were watching that show and I was like, oh, this is really funny.
Speaker B:And so certainly if you were in the industry, you know, for us, we had never seen our industry played out.
Speaker B:Like this.
Speaker B:We'd never seen it, you know, gamified, so to speak.
Speaker B:And, you know, there were a lot of truths to it, but there were also some exaggerations.
Speaker B:And there were also, you know, just as you would expect on television.
Speaker B:But I also thoroughly enjoyed it.
Speaker B:I happened to be friends with a stylist called Nolay Marin, who was in the first season, and he was talking to me about it.
Speaker B:And I'd met Tyra, and I met Jay Manuel and several other people.
Speaker B:And then for season two, they had actually come up to me and asked if I.
Speaker B:Well, someone had come up to me.
Speaker B:I think it was one of my Jay Manuel who said no.
Speaker B:They're looking for photographers for season two.
Speaker B:Would you like to audition to that?
Speaker B:I'm like, well, okay, sure, I'll audition.
Speaker B:I've never done anything like this before.
Speaker B:They're like, it's just gonna be one episode.
Speaker B:You're gonna do one episode.
Speaker B:You'll be the photographer for that episode, but you still have to audition.
Speaker B:So I'm like, okay, fine.
Speaker B:And I went to this.
Speaker B:It was Jay Manuel's house.
Speaker B:In fact, I met one of my friends who's a stylist who went.
Speaker B:Took me shopping, first of all.
Speaker B:Cause I thought I had to get dressed up.
Speaker B:I was gonna be on tv, and I wasn't sure what I was gonna do.
Speaker B:And he convinced me to buy a pair of red Prada winkle picker shoes, which are like thin, long shoes in bright red leather.
Speaker B:And they were like these crazy shoes.
Speaker B:And I was like, I would never buy them normally, but I bought them for this sort of interview, which in itself was ludicrous because I was on camera from the waist up.
Speaker B:Just how little I knew, right?
Speaker B:But there I was at this interview at his house, and they gave me a magazine.
Speaker B:They said, just go through the magazine and kind of critique it.
Speaker B:And I grabbed the magazine and I was just looking through and sort of giving commentary.
Speaker B:And they were like, oh, that went really well.
Speaker B:That was great, actually.
Speaker B:You did a really good job.
Speaker B:That was.
Speaker B:Love your shoes.
Speaker B:And we'll call you.
Speaker B:Two weeks go by, no call.
Speaker B:Six weeks go by, no call.
Speaker B:Almost two months go by, no call.
Speaker B:I'm like, oh, well, I just didn't get it.
Speaker B:It's fine.
Speaker B:Hey, you know what?
Speaker B:If you don't try, you don't know.
Speaker B:It's fine.
Speaker B:And I had a studio in the meatpacking district on 14th street at the time.
Speaker B:And one of my assistants, the phone rang, and he picked it up, and he answered the phone.
Speaker B:And he's like, oh, Nigel, I think it's those guys that you interviewed for on that show.
Speaker B:And it was brand new.
Speaker B:The show was on UPN at the time.
Speaker B:We'd done one season.
Speaker B:And I took the call and they're like, hi, Nigel Barkhat.
Speaker B:I'm like, yeah, sure, Sorry we're getting back to you so late, but your tape carried on sort of going up and up at cbs.
Speaker B:And are you available to be a judge for the whole season?
Speaker B:And I'm like, what are you talking about?
Speaker B:A judge for the whole season?
Speaker B:A judge of what?
Speaker B:And they were like, a judge on America's Next Top Model.
Speaker B:And I'm like, I thought you wanted me to be a photographer.
Speaker B:And they're like, well, and a judge.
Speaker B:And I was like, okay.
Speaker B:I'm like, what is.
Speaker B:I'm not sure I've got what's the.
Speaker A:Money is what you said, what's the money?
Speaker B:You know what?
Speaker B:I wasn't even overly excited about the money, to be honest.
Speaker B:What I thought was how as a young man, as a young photographer, do I become one of the few well known photographers in the business?
Speaker B:And There are about 10 well known photographers in the industry.
Speaker B:There aren't a lot more than that.
Speaker B:You can pretty much name them on a couple of your hands.
Speaker B:It's similar to acting.
Speaker B:I mean, who's the biggest actors at any one time?
Speaker B:There's just a handful of lead people.
Speaker B:It's a very similar industry.
Speaker B:It's very hard.
Speaker B:It's like modeling or something.
Speaker B:Modeling, acting, anything like that.
Speaker B:It's very tough to be at the top of your game.
Speaker B:So I'm like, how on earth?
Speaker B:I was doing okay and shooting and stuff, but how do I become a name?
Speaker B:And I thought, well, if there's one thing that would help was if I could be on a primetime television show.
Speaker B:Basically being fed into people's living rooms and them hearing my name and seeing my work, it's sort of a dice roll.
Speaker B:But it was an opportunity.
Speaker B:And I say that.
Speaker B:The thing is, you have to understand it sounds ridiculous now because you have hindsight to look at it, but when you were working in the fashion industry and certainly back then, deciding to go on a reality television show on primetime is actually a risky move because the fashion industry was very critical of shows like America's Next Top Model.
Speaker B:We were not considered cool by the fashion industry when we first started.
Speaker B:So you have to understand that Vogue didn't get involved with America's Next Top model until season 12.
Speaker B:They completely missed the boat.
Speaker B:They had no idea how successful our show would be.
Speaker B:And, you know, we were sponsored by Walmart and Kmart and, you know, sort of big chains and, you know, the magazines were, you know, it was Covergirl.
Speaker B:It wasn't the sort of Luomo Vogue or Italian Vogue or all the cool stuff that you kind of know.
Speaker B:We became that when our numbers became so strong and we were so big that we were doing so much better than Vogue was.
Speaker B:Then vogue suddenly realized, oh, we actually need you.
Speaker B:So it wasn't till season 12 that they put Andre Leon Talley, editor at large of American Vogue, became a judge, and the prize became Italian Vogue.
Speaker B:But that was not the situation when I first joined.
Speaker B:So again, when I first joined, it was that risk of like, do you do it or do you not do it?
Speaker B:But I thought, well, this is an opportunity for me to see if I can create something.
Speaker B:And I thought maybe one season I had no idea it would become a cult show and we'd be basically one of the biggest shows on tv.
Speaker A:But that must have been when you guys were in the office and you seeing it, the ratings go up and up.
Speaker A:And that must have been a great being in amongst the production team.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Um, I mean, because.
Speaker A:Because, yeah, the odds were so healing.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Because the odds were stacked against you.
Speaker A:And you say Andre comes in and blah, blah, blah.
Speaker A:And then it just goes and goes and goes.
Speaker B:I'll tell you a funny story.
Speaker A:You were just.
Speaker A:Sorry to interrupt you, but you were in it longer than anybody else, right, Nigel?
Speaker B:I'm the longest standing judge on America's next Top Model, other than Tyra Banks.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:There you go.
Speaker A:So, yeah, have a pretty good idea what you do.
Speaker B:I think I lucked myself into a lot of things, you know, in many ways, but, you know, quite photogenic as well.
Speaker B:Thank you, darling.
Speaker B:You know, one of the things that was just.
Speaker B:And I always take everything with a pinch of salt at the end of the day.
Speaker B:But, you know, one of the things that showed how iconic the show had become, there was a magazine called American Photo Magazine.
Speaker B:It's one of the oldest, most classic photography magazines in the world.
Speaker B:And it's the longest standing running magazine in the US over 100 years.
Speaker B:And they have for years run a photographer who's like the sort of top 10 photographers list.
Speaker B:And it's voted by the public.
Speaker B:And what they've historically done is they would have.
Speaker B: photographer out of nowhere,: Speaker B:Just want to let you know that you're in our list of top photographers this year for the first time.
Speaker B:And I'm like, oh, that's amazing.
Speaker B:What an honor.
Speaker B:And like, yeah, it's kind of interesting.
Speaker B:I said, well, how did I do?
Speaker B:And they're like, well, you came in number one.
Speaker A:Oh, wow.
Speaker B:And I was like, really?
Speaker A:I was like, what?
Speaker B:What are you talking about?
Speaker B:I said, how did this even happen?
Speaker B:And they said.
Speaker B:The guy was like, well, to be honest, I have no idea.
Speaker B:And I was like, what do you mean?
Speaker B:Tell me this story.
Speaker B:And he's like, well, I'll tell you exactly what happened.
Speaker B:And we want to.
Speaker B:It's so interesting.
Speaker B:We want to run a story on it.
Speaker B:The fact that this happened because what happened was an intern they hired was given the job of just running this contest.
Speaker B:It was a pretty simple thing.
Speaker B:Here's.
Speaker B:Here are the list of photographers.
Speaker B:We have the same list of photographers every year.
Speaker B:We don't really add anyone new.
Speaker B:The public votes.
Speaker B:And she looked at the list and she was like, 19.
Speaker B:And she looked at the list and she was like, huh, there's someone missing from this list.
Speaker B:Why haven't they got Nigel Barker from America's Next Top Model on this list?
Speaker B:They've got Eddie Leibovitz, whoever that is.
Speaker B:Steven Meisel, I've never heard of him.
Speaker B:It got his stuff, looks weird, you know, so on and so forth.
Speaker B:You know, someone called Ansel Adams, you know, you know, the list goes on.
Speaker B:And she was like, well, I'm going to add this guy, Nigel Barker from my favorite show.
Speaker B:And she put my name in the list and didn't tell anyone, and it just slipped under the radar.
Speaker B:And they went to publish.
Speaker B:And then people wrote in their favorite photographer.
Speaker B:And the thing is, is that showed the power of.
Speaker B:Of television.
Speaker B:That thing.
Speaker B:Exactly.
Speaker B:That I was mentioning at the beginning about why I rolled the dice on whether I should do this.
Speaker B:And not just that I get on the list and get voted, but I got voted by so many people.
Speaker B:I came in as number one.
Speaker B:So they called me up and they were like, never had this happen before.
Speaker B:It's always the same top 10.
Speaker B:It's never this and it's just showed.
Speaker B:Anyway, so it was this big dawning for me to understand what I had in the palm of my hand, what.
Speaker B:What I could do with that platform.
Speaker B:And you Know, it's what drove me to do a lot of the things I've done in my career since.
Speaker B:And large part of it is trying to make a difference using photography, using filmmaking, telling important stories, whether it's in Haiti, whether it's in Africa, doing various different big projects where people will listen to you because you have their ear for a different reason.
Speaker B:But it's like if they trust you here, can giving you, giving them advice and hopefully they'll trust me here when we're trying to talk about a more serious issue.
Speaker A:Yeah, I, yeah, I, I, I, I think that's one of the things that when you do have that platform and you do feel passionate about something that, that, that you can go and do that if you care enough.
Speaker A:You've made documentaries before, Nigel, right?
Speaker B:Several documentaries, yeah.
Speaker A:The Haiti one.
Speaker A:Could you, could you tell me a little bit about that?
Speaker B:So, yeah, I've had the opportunity to make a lot, do a lot of film work and direct movies and stuff like that, as well as doing fashion photography.
Speaker B:And it's, I think for me that what I've always looked for is the opportunity to do something creative.
Speaker B:First and foremost, I think I think of myself as just a creative, not necessarily as a photographer or has someone who did some modeling or whatever it might be.
Speaker B:Now I'm making cocktails.
Speaker B:There's a creative path to all of these things.
Speaker B:You're making something, you're creating something.
Speaker B:And a film is very similar.
Speaker B:And documentaries are a little different because documentaries, it's more documenting what's happened or happening.
Speaker B:But the way I approached it was always through celebration of life and trying to find the beauty in any situation.
Speaker B:And that was my sort of the way I approached my documentary mainly.
Speaker B:So with Haiti, what I had been told by everybody was just how terrible everything was and how awful it was and how dreadful the situation was and that you shouldn't go there.
Speaker B:It was crazy, dangerous and all the things.
Speaker B:And much of that is not incorrect.
Speaker B:However, within any kind of disaster, within any kind of trauma, without any kind of difficulty, there is always an amazing amount of beauty.
Speaker B:And that's really when people show their best sides as well as often their worst sides.
Speaker B:But that drama and when people have it's life or death, you either choose one path or another.
Speaker B:And the path of trying to fix things and make the world a better place is never stronger in those that type of situation.
Speaker B:So a place like Haiti, which is really on precipice of complete collapse, also shows people that are remarkably resilient, incredibly brave, courageous like you've never seen before.
Speaker B:And so we would tell stories about these people in those sorts of situations, following their everyday life, the things that they were doing, how they were coping, and if nothing more, as an example to the world as to what you can do with less than nothing.
Speaker B:And it was startlingly beautiful.
Speaker B:We followed one young girl called Azaleen who had lost her entire family in the earthquake and was living with random strangers in a tent and every day braided her hair, put her clothes on, went to school and, you know, and just studied as hard as she could as a seven year old doing, you know, not knowing whether she could even eat.
Speaker B:I mean, and when she didn't eat, not complaining and going to bed hungry and never saying anything to anybody.
Speaker B:And to see that from a little girl and to know that my little girl at home, you know, had everything she could possibly want and need and still wanted more or still wasn't necessarily happy.
Speaker B:And, you know, and that's not anything on my daughter, but rather society as a whole where we accept and expect so much and we don't see what's directly in front of us.
Speaker B:And so, you know, telling stories like that are really, for me, really important.
Speaker B:And that film was called Haiti, Hunger and Hope.
Speaker B:And then, you know, we actually won the film heels award for that at the Manhattan Film Festival.
Speaker A:Right, man, very good.
Speaker A:I think that's great.
Speaker A:When you get, when you, when you have a platform to be able to use it, I think that's very good.
Speaker A:You, and then you, the cocktail program.
Speaker B:You did the Shaken and Stirred show.
Speaker A:Shaking and Stirred.
Speaker A:Was that, was that running at the.
Speaker B:Same time as Top Model?
Speaker A:Or did you run it after or.
Speaker B:No.
Speaker B: So Top Model, I started in: Speaker B:13.
Speaker B:So about over a decade.
Speaker B:Around a decade.
Speaker B:I then did a show called the Face with Naomi Campbell for a couple of years on NBC.
Speaker B:I was the host and we had.
Speaker B:It was supermodel teams.
Speaker B:Who thinks of these ideas, right?
Speaker B:Supermodel teams of supermodels super sparring against one another.
Speaker B:And somehow I got to host it.
Speaker B:You know, I'd come home really tired from work and I complained to my wife, like how tired I was.
Speaker B:And she'd look at me and she goes, wait a second, you work with Naomi Campbell, Coco Rocha, you know, anv, or Carolina Kirkova.
Speaker B:Don't tell me that you're tired about these, you know, because you've had supermodels pulling on your arm all night long.
Speaker A:I was just about to say the Way you said I did this with Naomi Campbell was just the way you said it.
Speaker A:You know, Naomi Campbell's probably the best known model ever, right?
Speaker B:I mean, really, you know, I tried what I could to help her with her career.
Speaker B:But you know, if, if any of.
Speaker A:You, if you've ever seen Naomi Campbell walk a catwalk, if you're ever gonna show anybody how to walk a catwalk, female, you just have to watch a few clips.
Speaker A:And she's the ultimate.
Speaker A:Like, nobody walked a catwalk or will ever walk a catwalk.
Speaker A:Like Naomi Campbell.
Speaker A:Absolutely superb.
Speaker A:Right, right there and then.
Speaker A:It's just that, you know, I'm sure.
Speaker B:She was walking at age 6 months.
Speaker A:No, but she's superb, right?
Speaker B:You know, joking aside, I mean, it's.
Speaker B:I, I feel like I'm on an episode of Zoolander right now.
Speaker B:No one walks better than Naomi Campbell.
Speaker B:You're quite right, though.
Speaker B:She is someone who naturally has like a fan in her hair at all times.
Speaker B:I remember I was 18 years old.
Speaker B:I was in Paris at the Louvre during Paris Fashion Week.
Speaker B:I had been selected as a model, one of just four male models to walk in Women's Fashion Week for Chanel.
Speaker B:And we were with Karl Lagerfeld backstage.
Speaker B:And it was a who's who of Christy Turlington, Nadja Orman, Claudia Schiffer, Megan Douglas, the name goes on and on.
Speaker B:And Naomi Campbell was one of them.
Speaker B:And Carl turns around this four male model.
Speaker B:We're standing there, we're meant to be like sort of.
Speaker B:There was a role for us in the show that he, he needed us to do something.
Speaker B:Essentially we had to carry models down the Runway.
Speaker B:And, and so we were, we were.
Speaker B:And so we were meant to have them on our shoulders for this one piece.
Speaker B:It was quite a famous show.
Speaker B:But Karl turns around to Naomi and I really didn't even know who Naomi was at that point.
Speaker B:I was like an 18 year old boy who just started modeling.
Speaker B:And here I was in Paris doing this thing and I had no idea of just when I say it now, it's like, whoa, man, that's super cool.
Speaker B:You walked for Chanel with Karl Lagerfeld and Naomi Campbell and know who's who.
Speaker B:But you have to understand, imagine if you were an 18 year old kid who didn't know fashion, who somehow got into this industry.
Speaker B:You're in a room with people, they're just people.
Speaker B:They weren't the icons and legends that they are today.
Speaker B:They were just, they were just the characters that were in the room, you know, but so I just didn't know.
Speaker B:And I look around and there's this English girl, Naomi, from Brixton.
Speaker B:From Brixton.
Speaker B:She knows.
Speaker B:She's got the accent, the whole line.
Speaker B:She's a bit more refined now, but back then, this is 30 plus years ago, she said, all right, and she walked out of nowhere.
Speaker B:I suddenly realized that I actually didn't know how to walk.
Speaker B:It's like when someone can walk and can make you realize that you don't know how to walk.
Speaker B:That's crazy.
Speaker B:That's Naomi.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah, Totally agree with that.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:Naomi was from Brixton or is from Brixton.
Speaker A:Kate Moss is from Croydon, which is where I'm from.
Speaker A:So I'm very familiar with the South London girls, which is Naomi and Kate, the cocktail show.
Speaker B:What do you mean by familiar?
Speaker B:I don't think we'll be digging a little bit more into this.
Speaker B:Shouldn't we?
Speaker B:You know, I'm going to turn the tables.
Speaker B:You can't use words like familiar and just expect it to just, you know, breeze through.
Speaker B:How familiar were we, Gary?
Speaker A:Something that I wouldn't like to say in this show.
Speaker B:Okay, that's a whole.
Speaker B:Another show.
Speaker B:I.
Speaker B:He could easily have just said, sorry, that didn't really mean anything by that.
Speaker B:But let's.
Speaker A:Let's carry on.
Speaker A:Let's carry on.
Speaker B:And he's sweating, blushing.
Speaker B:He's got a little shiny now.
Speaker B:I don't know anything about.
Speaker A:None of your cake.
Speaker A:Anyway, listen, the cocktail show, tell me about that.
Speaker B:Wow.
Speaker B:Okay, I'm shifting gears smoothly.
Speaker A:So during.
Speaker A:Not really smoothly, was it?
Speaker A:I had to get out of the.
Speaker A:Anyway, let's carry.
Speaker B:I was trying to be sarcastic.
Speaker B:You couldn't tell.
Speaker B:So during the pandemic, like most of us, I hadn't much more to do other than make cocktails.
Speaker B:So I just sort of thought, well, if I can.
Speaker B:Now, I had been doing a show called Top Photographer, which was my own show.
Speaker B:We were about to start season two.
Speaker B:The pandemic hit, and I couldn't do it.
Speaker B:Got everything got canceled.
Speaker B:So I was making cocktails and I just thought to myself, well, why don't I turn this into something?
Speaker B:I thought it'd be fun if I could do it with a friend of mine who I used to love to have a cocktail with.
Speaker B:I'm like, look, why don't we do this show where we talk about the myths, the rumors, the legends, the history, the stories behind the alcohol industry, the cocktail culture, where they came from?
Speaker B:Any given cocktail, any given alcohol has a huge history.
Speaker B:I mean, you can Trace alcohol back further than you can food.
Speaker B:6,000 years is the first recorded occurrence of people drinking and creating alcohol.
Speaker B:And it just goes on and on.
Speaker B:I mean, it's written in the Bible, Jesus turning water into wine, you name it.
Speaker B:There's so many stories over and over again.
Speaker B:It's banned in the US with prohibition.
Speaker B:It's political, it's religious, it's all the things.
Speaker B:There's so many great stories.
Speaker B:This will make a great subject for a podcast.
Speaker B:So we created this show called the Shaken and Stirred Show.
Speaker B:And it was sort of something we did sort of once a week and we did it ourselves.
Speaker B:And it ended up getting picked up by Sony and then syndicated by Univision.
Speaker B:And we ended up doing 135 episodes.
Speaker B:And it became a behemoth of a show with really big endorsers and was an amazing kind of thing that just happened out of nowhere during the pandemic.
Speaker B:But again, I didn't know that basically all anyone was doing during the pandemic was drinking cocktails and hanging out at home.
Speaker B:So timing is everything in this world.
Speaker B:So that was just one of those things where again, I had sort of locked myself into a kind of a good idea at the right moment and had something that was kind of timely.
Speaker B:But I do think that a large part of knowing success is understanding the zeitgeist at the time and being able to be a part of pop culture and feeding into that.
Speaker B:And, you know, not that one always knows, but if one of something that I've tried to always be very hyper aware of was what was happening now.
Speaker B:You know, as a photographer, your job is to be in the here and now, not thinking about yesterday, not worrying about tomorrow, but thinking about right now.
Speaker B:When I take a picture, it's about that split second about that reaction that someone's having in front of me at that moment.
Speaker B:And I try and provoke that reaction.
Speaker B:I try and create that reaction.
Speaker B:I don't just let it happen, I try and make it.
Speaker B:But as a result of that, you have to be really present.
Speaker B:That presence helps you also analyze the situation around you in any given moment.
Speaker B:And so I think it helps you be hyper aware.
Speaker B:And you know, the show led, you know, was very clear of the success of certain cocktails.
Speaker B:The Espresso Martini, even back then, five years ago, we're going to get to.
Speaker B:The Espresso Martini was very successful.
Speaker A:You know, we're going to get there.
Speaker A:This is, this is leading me in.
Speaker A:But just you just touched on a point which I'd like to ask you about Nigel, not many successful models make successful photographers.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:I mean I'm after.
Speaker A:And this is off the top of my head because I don't really follow it much, but Jack guy probably does okay, right.
Speaker A:He shoots well.
Speaker A:And the reason I'm saying that is because you were talking about the performance just now.
Speaker A:And I think that when you've been this side of the camera, you have got half an idea how to get a performance out of your subject.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:But very few transition into being successful photographers, unlike great soccer players, for instance, who go on to be successful coaches.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Because you know the other side of it.
Speaker A:And I again, when you were talking about photography and knowing what.
Speaker A:Because for me, if you've got a subject in front of you, they've, they've got the performance within them, but you have to find that button.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Because different people are triggered by different things.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So sometimes people are going to warm up within five minutes and sometimes it might take half an hour, 45 minutes, correct?
Speaker B:Absolutely.
Speaker B:I mean I think it's similar to actors who become directors.
Speaker B:You know, it's, it's not a direct path from one to the other.
Speaker B:It does happen.
Speaker B:There are plenty of actors who have gone on to be well known directors, but it isn't necessarily normal.
Speaker B:I think one of the parts of that is the fact that if you are talent, as in you're the actor, you're the model, you often can't give it up.
Speaker B:And so there's, there can be a competitive nature to you and you have to give it up.
Speaker B:You have to be able to go, I, I'm no longer the talent.
Speaker B:I am now the director.
Speaker B:I'm now the photographer.
Speaker B:And that's okay.
Speaker B:Not as okay.
Speaker B:That's my job, that's what I'm doing.
Speaker B:And people often find that hard.
Speaker B:So I think it is a sort of competitive nature that stops or pulls people back.
Speaker B:I mean, when I started and I ended modeling and I started taking pictures, first thing I did was shave my head and I literally was like gone with the past.
Speaker B:Here's the future.
Speaker B:And I wanted to completely change what I looked like, who I was, everything.
Speaker B:And you know, that for me was an important.
Speaker B:You can't make that jump because it's too easy.
Speaker B:People are keep giving you, trying to give you one more job and you have to say no to the money does.
Speaker B:It's a great point, you know, and you have to say no, I'm not doing that anymore.
Speaker B:I'm a photographer now or I'm a director.
Speaker B:I'm on the other side, I'm changing what I'm doing.
Speaker B:And it's very.
Speaker B:It's too easy to keep one foot in both.
Speaker B:And you can't.
Speaker B:You have.
Speaker B:You know, in order to be taken seriously, you have to stop one completely and start the other.
Speaker B:So it's tough for people to do that, you know, And I think with.
Speaker B:With.
Speaker B:With.
Speaker B:With football, it's different.
Speaker A:Jack didn't do you really either?
Speaker B:Well, no, he still models Jack.
Speaker B:Yeah, that's what I'm saying.
Speaker B:And it's hard to do that because when you.
Speaker B:The problem being is that when I.
Speaker B:You know, when you.
Speaker B:When you have your subject in front of you, they're the star.
Speaker B:But if you're also modeling, are you the star too?
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And so that's a problem.
Speaker B:And so for me, too, whatever, I.
Speaker B:Even though I might be famous from a television show or whatever, whenever I shoot, whoever I'm shooting, wherever I'm shooting them, they're the star.
Speaker B:The place is the star.
Speaker B:I'm just a photographer.
Speaker B:And it's very important that they realize that.
Speaker A:But don't you feel because of that, that sometimes is your.
Speaker A:Does your subject get intimidated?
Speaker B:Well, my job is.
Speaker B:Is to make sure that they sort of.
Speaker B:Not that they don't, but it doesn't necessarily impact their performance.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So the thing about photography is it you don't have to have someone be happy to take a good picture.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:In order to get a good picture, the person has to react.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:It's a reaction that you're after.
Speaker B:So a great picture could have someone be completely nervous around you.
Speaker B:That's also fine.
Speaker B:They could be incredibly awkward around you.
Speaker B:That's also fine.
Speaker B:What you want them to be is real.
Speaker B:The realness is what reacts.
Speaker B:Makes the camera react.
Speaker B:If you can feel the authenticity in their performance, you'll believe them and you'll like the reaction.
Speaker B:You'll like what you get.
Speaker B:You know, obviously, if you want them to be happy, because that's the ad campaigns like who they're all about.
Speaker B:You therefore have to create an environment where they will be naturally happy and laughing, in a good mood and not intimidated by you.
Speaker B:And that may mean that you have to hire a model that's big enough that they don't feel intimidated.
Speaker B:Absolutely.
Speaker B:Regardless of me, if you're working with Meiselle, he's equally intimidating, Right?
Speaker B:It's Stephen Mizel, Andy Leibovitz.
Speaker B:It's equally intimidating.
Speaker B:Yet somehow they managed to get out of their subject what they need, because they're very good at being either Using that intimidation to get what they want or they create an environment where that person therefore feels comfortable enough to be able to react and perform.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Whilst you were making the show, the.
Speaker A:Sorry, Nigel, what was the English show?
Speaker B:Which one?
Speaker A:The cocktail show.
Speaker B:Shaken.
Speaker B:You've done a few other shaken instead.
Speaker B:Keep up with me.
Speaker B:Hey, Gary.
Speaker B:I'm trying to.
Speaker B:Keep up with me.
Speaker A:Checking the step.
Speaker A:Was that where the seeds started to be selling for the espresso?
Speaker B:Back then, when I was looking at what you know, we talked to bartenders and mixologists and on the show we would have some of the best bartenders, mixologists from around the world come on and talk about how to make certain cocktails.
Speaker B:We'd also have celebrities talk about their favorite cocktail or their brand of cocktails that they were now producing, most of which knew nothing about their, their product whatsoever and couldn't talk to about it at all.
Speaker B:You know, rarely even knew where tequila even came from.
Speaker B:But, you know, it was obvious that espresso martinis were becoming very popular, but were very hard to make.
Speaker B:You essentially, you know, most bars don't have a coffee machine in them, an espresso machine in them that's in the kitchen.
Speaker B:So you're either, you know, advancing a bunch of espressos and keeping them on the side.
Speaker B:You're making them one at a time.
Speaker B:It comes out hot, you've got to cool it down, otherwise it melts your ice, ruins your cocktail.
Speaker B:If you cool the coffee too quickly, it becomes bitter and ruins the espresso.
Speaker B:You know, if you're making a bunch in advance, it goes bad, it sours, it settles.
Speaker B:Then there's a hundred different recipes.
Speaker B:You have to be a barista and a bartender.
Speaker B:Most are sort of either one or the other, but definitely not both.
Speaker B:So there were a lot of complications around this particular cocktail.
Speaker B:And then when I looked at all the ones out there that were pre made, that were already being, you know, by the big brands, they were either too sweet, too bitter, fake tasting, no head, all the things that were gross about them.
Speaker B:And I thought, well, there's a gap in the market and I can feel this sort of surge of this desire for this cocktail that had been big in the 90s, had risen and then kind of dipped as Sex and the City had sort of brought in the Cosmo and various other things and know that became the fun, cool cocktail that New York was all about.
Speaker B:When I first came to New York, that's what everyone was drinking.
Speaker B:And you know, espresso martinis were just sort of not really that big and vodka Red Bull and all kinds of other stuff.
Speaker B:And I'm like, this is weird because the espresso martini has the opportunity to conquer the brunch menu because it's got coffee in it.
Speaker B:And there's been no challenge to the Bloody Mary and the mimosa ever.
Speaker B:It's much nicer and more sophisticated than a vodka Red Bull.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker B:And then after dinner, you know, do you want dessert, do you want coffee, or do you want a cocktail?
Speaker B:How about you have all three and you have an espresso martini?
Speaker B:I'm like, this is a genius cocktail that lasts all year long, is not seasonal, has no time of the day that you can drink it.
Speaker B:And it's made so badly and most bars can't do it.
Speaker B:And I'm so, I'm like, maybe I can help this situation.
Speaker B:I see a gap in the market and I live for gaps in the market.
Speaker B:So hence I went to work.
Speaker B:My partner was a guy called Philippe Roederer.
Speaker B: rought over vivre Clicquot in: Speaker B:They were doing 3,000 cases a year and it's now obviously the most famous champagne company in the world.
Speaker B:He was also CEO of Voss Water and sold that at two and a half million cases his stock.
Speaker B:So he's real solid background in the spirits industry.
Speaker B:My head of marketing was also head of marketing for Edrington, which owns Macallan Whiskey.
Speaker B:We've got a lot of senior people, but I also brought on a bunch of my own personal team, Chris Rocco, Evan Campbell, who are young, they are vibrant, they are, you know, a part of like young people who are out there drinking in bars and nightclubs.
Speaker B:They know the scene and they're also creatives and they work in the fashion and the entertainment industry.
Speaker B:And you know, their eye and vision isn't from old school liquor business.
Speaker B:And having that fresh perspective helped us create a completely different vision of how we should do this.
Speaker B:And what I thought was going to take me six months, took me two years.
Speaker B:We went through 77 different coffees to get to the one.
Speaker B:It's 100% Colombian espresso, six times distilled vodka, caramelized brown sugar, gluten free.
Speaker B:You simply shake it on ice and you go.
Speaker B:And we created a solution that has in one year taken us to 22 states and we've done 55,000 cases in year one, which was kind of something.
Speaker A:It's, it's really very good.
Speaker A:I mean, I, I think all of you are as everyone has.
Speaker A:Everyone here tasted one of Nigel's Martinez tonight because if you haven't, you should.
Speaker A:One of the things that she impressed me is that I, I feel that our bartenders are probably as good as anybody in the city.
Speaker A:We've got some fantastic bartenders here, but Mario made one earlier and the shake.
Speaker B:Is.
Speaker A:Doesn'T take as long, which is fantastic.
Speaker A:And like you said at the bar, Nigel, when you, when you taste a great espresso martini and you're out, you can now go home and you can make one at home or you can make one for any event.
Speaker A:And it's really.
Speaker A:I don't normally say this because I do feel this is our.
Speaker A:Nigel and I got talking.
Speaker A:We didn't get talking about modeling and stuff like that.
Speaker A:We got talking on Espresso Martinez and I feel that it's known that the, the Expresso Martinez here are amongst the best in the city.
Speaker A:And but Nigel's is right up there.
Speaker A:It's, it's a really, really good product.
Speaker A:And yeah, man, I'm glad, I'm glad you brought it in because it's, it.
Speaker A:The difference in labor even you know, to make this at home and to get the same experience is, is, is tough as you've already said.
Speaker A:And I think, I think what you've done there with the coffee is, is a game changer because the coffee does give you that.
Speaker A:The separation in the head.
Speaker A:As you already know, you clearly know what you about.
Speaker B:I mean most of these guys out, most of the ones out there that are pre batched or pre made don't have any coffee in them at all.
Speaker B:Which was the kind of one of the interesting things that made me think, well, that's weird, you know, how can you call yourself an espresso martini and not actually have any coffee in your product?
Speaker B:But that is a fact.
Speaker B:So you know, look at the ingredients when you buy something that's pre made or quite frankly anything these days to see what it has in it.
Speaker B:And that was something that drew us to make, make this happen.
Speaker B:And then we created a cappuccino martini as well.
Speaker B:Which it really is for all those people out there who love to put a shot of Bailey's in their espresso martini and make the creamy version.
Speaker B:But when we thought of doing it, I'm like, okay, look, I'm not going to fight it.
Speaker B:I'm a purist.
Speaker B:I like espresso martini.
Speaker B:But if I'm going to do this, I'm going to call it a cappuccino margini because clearly if you put milk in espresso it's either a latte or a cappuccino, is it not?
Speaker B:So when we registered the name, the funny thing happened was that not just were we the only ones in the United States, but we were the only people in the world to put the word cappuccino in front of martini and registered it.
Speaker B:No one anywhere had thought of putting the two words together, which was just a really strange thought to me.
Speaker B:And we were the first to market with what's with a drink that's actually been made by bartenders around the world for years, Putting Bailey's in espresso Martini.
Speaker B:They just never named it publicly.
Speaker B:So, you know, again, timing is everything.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Sometimes the best ideas are the most obvious.
Speaker A:But has everyone tasted Nigel's Martini, by the way?
Speaker A:Did you taste it back there, you guys?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:No, It's a special product.
Speaker A:So, yeah, we're gonna, we're gonna drink some more.
Speaker A:Nigel.
Speaker A:I think I, I, I've really.
Speaker B:That's an ominous.
Speaker B:That was an ominous promise.
Speaker B:We're gonna drink some more.
Speaker A:No, we're gonna drink some more.
Speaker B:Night is.
Speaker B:But young people, we're gonna lock the doors.
Speaker B:Everyone who's in here right now, you're not getting out until 6am we're gonna drink some more.
Speaker A:I've loved this chat with you.
Speaker A:It's been great.
Speaker A:There's one thing I do want to ask you though, which I saw because I did some research before I talked to her.
Speaker A:The dance, the Nigel Barker dance.
Speaker B:You want to get up and have a go?
Speaker A:Yeah, I've got an idea.
Speaker A:Well, I kind of saw it.
Speaker A:Are you going to judge me on it?
Speaker A:You're going to be my judge on that?
Speaker B:You know, I did not create this dance.
Speaker A:But how did it come, how did you actually ever do this dance?
Speaker B:No, I've never done this dance in my life.
Speaker B:It was a, it was a viral thing that happened.
Speaker B:Somebody basically got up, a fan type, got decided to do a dance, call it the Nigel Barker Dance.
Speaker B:After some out of nowhere, it was when TikTok was first taken off, people started doing this dance everywhere and calling it do the Nigel Barker.
Speaker B:And it became a thing one summer and everybody everywhere was doing this dance.
Speaker B:What, someone was there?
Speaker B:Uh, I think it was about five, six years ago or so.
Speaker B:Anyway, right before the pandemic.
Speaker A:There's a dream here in this bar and in the front bar called the grumpy British manager, which is obviously after me.
Speaker A:And yeah, sometimes I can be grumpy, but generally I'm not.
Speaker B:It's just English.
Speaker A:I'm just English yet.
Speaker A:But then when I saw this information about Nigel out there, I just thought, I've got to ask Nigel about this.
Speaker A:The Nigel Barker dance.
Speaker A:So you want me to have a go of it?
Speaker B:I mean, this is a podcast, so for all of you out there just listening, I just think we're just going to.
Speaker B:I know, but it's a podcast, right?
Speaker B:So podcast by definition is to be listened to, not watched.
Speaker B:Otherwise we call this a TV show.
Speaker B:Right, Gary, It's a slight different thing.
Speaker B:I know you can watch it.
Speaker B:Okay, so if you are listening to it, go watch it.
Speaker A:No, just.
Speaker B:Or just listen to us giggle.
Speaker A:Describe it to me.
Speaker A:Describe it to me.
Speaker B:How.
Speaker B:How would you say the movements are again?
Speaker B:It's not my dance.
Speaker A:Oh, right.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:So as I understand it, it's like you.
Speaker A:You're pumping the arms and you move in the legs.
Speaker A:Correct.
Speaker B:And the hips.
Speaker A:And the hips.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:I'm.
Speaker A:I'm going to leave it, I think.
Speaker A:But, yeah, I'm not going to put myself in that position.
Speaker A:Nigel, it's been a real pleasure, man.
Speaker A:We're going to go and have some drinks.
Speaker A:That looks nice.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:I can't wait.
Speaker B:Thank you very much for having me.
Speaker B:Appreciate it.
Speaker B:Thanks very much.
Speaker B:Cheers.
Speaker B:Maggie.
